Transcripts for Action Research Studio

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Interview with Emma Sawyer

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Sienna Van Venetien
Andy for both of us to have, I think.

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Emma Sawyer
Yep.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Cool. Did you just hit record as well?

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Sienna Van Venetien
No.

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Emma Sawyer
Alright cause I.

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Sienna Van Venetien
I was like, I've got a red dot at the top of my screen and I guess that recorder is something else.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah, I think it's recording.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Is it?

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Emma Sawyer
Umm yeah, and I think it should share the file with both of us so.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Uh, mazing.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Cool.

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Sienna Van Venetien
And yeah, I don't think the transcription is usually too bad.

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Sienna Van Venetien
It looks pretty good so far.

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Sienna Van Venetien
I don't know if you can see it, but it looks pretty good.

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Emma Sawyer
Is it recording the meeting or just the transcription?

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Sienna Van Venetien
I have no idea.

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Sienna Van Venetien
That's what I'm trying to check.

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Emma Sawyer
You want me? I'll, I'll I can hit start record for the video. I feel like.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah, maybe do that.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah, recording and.

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Sienna Van Venetien
But beauty, yay. OK, cool.

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Sienna Van Venetien
That's what I was looking for.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Alrighty.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm so.

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Sienna Van Venetien
To start off with you, obviously you know a bit about my topic already, which makes this one. It's nice and easy, but yeah, as you know, I'm looking into mental health and how.

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Sienna Van Venetien
The tactile.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Stimulus can help, especially in education spaces, and particularly for.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm High school to tertiary students. So I wanted to ask if you're happy to share first, what mental health issues you struggle with or have been diagnosed with and that kind of thing?

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah. Sorry. I have 80 HD.

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Emma Sawyer
I have generalized anxiety disorder.

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Emma Sawyer
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
And I'm like treated for both of those with medication.

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Sienna Van Venetien
I go. Go. Do you find them? The medication has helped helped a lot.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
Ah yes, the H well actually both because.

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Emma Sawyer
Umm the ADHD medication.

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Emma Sawyer
Helps me to like focus for longer periods and just like.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah, it's made uni a lot easier.

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Emma Sawyer
And then with the anxiety medication, because I'm like, quite a high dose and I'm actually on like two different types of anxiety medication. So I take a medication in the morning and then I take a different medication for anxiety at night.

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Emma Sawyer
And yeah, they really, really hope like.

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Sienna Van Venetien
So.

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Emma Sawyer
A lot. So I like. I think I've just always been anxious.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
But often ADHD and anxiety go hand in hand.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Like like many.

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Sienna Van Venetien
When if you don't mind me asking again, what? When were you diagnosed with your ADHD and anxiety?

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Emma Sawyer
It was only, well, I have been trying to get a diagnosis back when I lived in London and pretty much like I went to was typologist and like I was like blah, all these things that I don't think are like normal.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
And they pretty much were just like, no, it's not ADHD and like wouldn't like entertain it at all.

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Emma Sawyer
But they did put me on antidepressants.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
Because, yeah, like my anxiety was just like, getting too much.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
And then when I move back to Brisbane and my mom works at a medical centre and they had a psychiatrist start there and she kind of had a word with her and sort of told her a little bit about me and then she was happy to see me, which.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
Then I was able to get the diagnosis. So that was like that was only maybe like a year ago that I actually got the diagnosis.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Well.

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Emma Sawyer
But have been trying to get someone to help for like 5 or six years.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Wow.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah, that's crazy.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
It's crazy how long it takes. I'm discovering more and more that it's like.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Try is getting harder and harder.

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Emma Sawyer
Will cause you, like you know that like.

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Emma Sawyer
When you grow up, you just grow up knowing what you know, like you don't know anything different. And I didn't realize that.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
School wasn't that difficult for everyone else, and like being in London and stuff, just.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah, it. And then actually my niece got diagnosed. So first in the family.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
And my brother.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Right.

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Emma Sawyer
And then I was like, hey, well, they're exactly like me. So it must be the same thing.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
Umm yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
So you struggled in school and that kind of environment as a kid?

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
School was awful for me. It was like.

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Emma Sawyer
You know, it's like I used to do so many annoying things, like I would finish the teachers.

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Emma Sawyer
Sentences in my head.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm hmm.

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Emma Sawyer
Which would like.

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Emma Sawyer
But prevent me from like listening because I'm trying to finish it in my head and then I would like drift off a lot like I would.

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Emma Sawyer
Be away in like Fairyland.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yes.

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Emma Sawyer
And like I've always been a kid with, like, lots of imagination and, like, creative and all that kind of stuff. And that's always just kind of like, you know, rolling around in the head.

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Emma Sawyer
Umm so like yeah, maths was like has always been particularly difficult.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
But I was also one of those kids that, like, sort of scraped.

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Emma Sawyer
Through like under the radar.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
Brother, I have two brothers. My the middle brother was like the typical ADHD naughty boy. Just.

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Emma Sawyer
So crazy.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
My older brother and I.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
I like the lesser known all then lesser known in need versions so we will be dreamers, Drifters like.

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Emma Sawyer
And like I remember getting to year seven and my like, I don't know how it came up in conversation. But Mum said something about geography and like the capitals and states of Australia. And I was like, I don't know if they are.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
What do you mean? And it's like, slowly, she started to uncover, like, all these gaps in my knowledge, like gaps that.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
If yeah that I cause, I just cruise through. I wasn't naughty, you know.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
The no one, it was never a behavioral thing. I just didn't take a lot of it in because I was.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
Dreaming. And then? Yeah. And then always said that made high school harder cause it was like.

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Emma Sawyer
Ship.

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Emma Sawyer
All of these gaps in my knowledge and just trying to like catch up to ever.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
So yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah. And I imagine not having diagnosis to it probably made it hard for teachers to understand and get the kind of help.

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Emma Sawyer
I don't need.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Or be able to reach out at all because you didn't know and no one else knew.

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Emma Sawyer
They like, I don't know. I feel like in primary school.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
It's all about your behaviour I feel. And if you're like.

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Emma Sawyer
Like I was the kid who would sit there and smile with, like, a big beaming smile.

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Emma Sawyer
And so you'd never.

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Sienna Van Venetien
You never pick it up.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
You you'd never pick it up. You just like she's a bit dumb, like or. You know what I mean? But not realize that like, it's other things going on and.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
Umm yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
So what was the question? Sorry I went off and attendant.

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Sienna Van Venetien
No, it's OK. You mother. Welcome to go off on a tangent. I've lost track of where we were as well, to be honest. So.

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Sienna Van Venetien
But I will also view you ever like when you were in primary in high school. Have you ever fiddled with anything or anything like that like found?

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Sienna Van Venetien
The stimulus elsewhere, that's been helpful, even if you haven't noticed that you're doing it.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Hmm.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah, unfortunately for me, fidget toys weren't a thing when I was in school, so I now have, like, a really bad, like skin picking thing. And I kind of because that's the way like, something that would be like under the desk or like, you know, they they couldn't be. It wasn't, like, obvious fidgeting where, like.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
Although, like I do shake my feet a lot for like movement. So yeah, pretty much all like like I used to get the glue sticks.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
And like rub my hand over the glue sticks and make like a tacky, like stringy thing and like that would feel like that would feel like a release for me. And it felt like, you know, you could help me sort of focus. But the problem is, like with this skin, like picking, it's like now I'm an adult and it's like.

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Emma Sawyer
It's so like subconscious. Like I don't even sometimes realize.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Hmm.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
And so that sucks, because that's like a odd behavior to like change.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah, of course. Especially if you've been doing it for so long.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah, it's.

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Sienna Van Venetien
And I feel that I do the same thing with my anxiety, too. I pick up my nails and the skin around my nails all the time, and then it becomes almost more destructive. And you don't even realize until you're like, wow, that kind of hurts.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah, it's a bit of the anxiety as well, definitely, but also cause I've had times when my partner said to me he's like.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
Like, are you OK? Like, what's going on for you right now? Because you know, and I'll be like nothing like cause I am just like steam stemming or whatever. Like, I'm just moving and like having motion. OK.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
And you'll focus kind of diminished longer. You you sat or was it kind of?

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah, I found that I would need to be like moving to take in like what was going on.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
And if it was for an extended period, I'd just ripped off.

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Emma Sawyer
And obviously school is along.

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Emma Sawyer
Like period.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Long sentence, yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
And so I'd just be like.

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Emma Sawyer
You know, dreaming up stories in my head. Or like, you know, looking at the teacher and thinking about their life or like, where they've come from. All, like looking at the window.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
Whatever it is.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah. No, that makes sense. So obviously, you've had a fidget toys before. You're kind of familiar with what they are and what they do.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Have you ever used them?

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Sienna Van Venetien
Before or not because they weren't around when you were in school.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
Umm, not in my adult life, but obviously my niece.

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Emma Sawyer
Actually, both of my nieces have had fidget toys.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
I this isn't a a fidget toy, but when I looked after them recently.

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Emma Sawyer
They're, like, obsessed with slime, like every other kid, and she wanted to make the slime.

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Emma Sawyer
From scratch.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
And I love that shirt cause I'm like, I like, let's blow **** up and, like, so made all of this slime. And I found that I actually asked her, like, can I keep this? Because the they're of it. And I was just like, I could just play with it for like hours. And it's that same sort of thing of, like, having my hands busy.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
But that's probably as far as like a fidget toy has kind of gone for me adult life.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah. Is there any particular reason why that is?

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Emma Sawyer
Umm.

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Emma Sawyer
I guess it's kind of associated with kids.

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Emma Sawyer
I don't really associate it with.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
Like adults or I haven't really seen any adults just using them.

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Emma Sawyer
Umm.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
So I guess there's a bit of a not a stigma, but it's a bit.

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Emma Sawyer
Like.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah, it's not as like openly.

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Emma Sawyer
Yeah, and I also.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Just yet.

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Emma Sawyer
I don't want.

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Emma Sawyer
People to look at me and be like.

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Emma Sawyer
Even though, like, I'm quite open about being like having ADHD, I don't want random people to just be like, huh?

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah, yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Emma Sawyer
She's this so she's that. And I knew. I do know that they've got these like anxiety slash ADHD rings that like.

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Emma Sawyer
Like swivel and all that kind of stuff. I don't like the look of them, so I wouldn't buy them. I guess there's not really been a fidget toy for adults that like.

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Emma Sawyer
Is appealing to me.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah, fair enough.

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Sienna Van Venetien
No, that makes sense.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Let me have a look.

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Sienna Van Venetien
So I have like lost my place.

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Emma Sawyer
That's my fault. I tend to sleep talk.

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Sienna Van Venetien
No, no, no, you're good.

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Sienna Van Venetien
Ohh, So what other methods or coping mechanisms do you use? I know like you mentioned your own medication now, so that helps a lot, but is there anything else you do in your daily life that kind of helps you cope with your ADHD and anxiety?

0:13:27.490 --> 0:13:31.600
Emma Sawyer
The biggest, most important thing is us.

0:13:32.110 --> 0:13:32.360
Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

0:13:32.450 --> 0:13:34.280
Emma Sawyer
And when I don't get.

0:13:35.300 --> 0:13:36.510
Emma Sawyer
Like exercise.

0:13:37.380 --> 0:13:41.910
Emma Sawyer
It really, really affects me and I will just plummet.

0:13:42.430 --> 0:13:42.650
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:13:42.540 --> 0:13:43.370
Emma Sawyer
So.

0:13:43.490 --> 0:13:47.900
Emma Sawyer
Umm but like like a good workout, like a sweaty like, you know?

0:13:48.770 --> 0:13:49.380
Emma Sawyer
So.

0:13:50.310 --> 0:13:59.0
Emma Sawyer
Not like running or anything, but so I I tried to cycle everywhere. I love doing Pilates and bar and like reformer and.

0:14:0.90 --> 0:14:2.460
Emma Sawyer
And I love going for walks and.

0:14:3.480 --> 0:14:4.970
Emma Sawyer
If I don't do that.

0:14:5.750 --> 0:14:6.990
Emma Sawyer
My mental health just.

0:14:7.770 --> 0:14:8.720
Emma Sawyer
Yeah, declines.

0:14:9.260 --> 0:14:11.640
Sienna Van Venetien
So you find the movements really, really helpful for you.

0:14:12.870 --> 0:14:13.40
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:14:14.700 --> 0:14:14.980
Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

0:14:19.890 --> 0:14:20.170
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:14:21.530 --> 0:14:22.940
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah. Yeah, no, that makes.

0:14:24.370 --> 0:14:24.790
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:14:11.940 --> 0:14:25.330
Emma Sawyer
Yeah. It's like a stress release. It's like it's like all the being able to get all of the energy that's in my body out so that I flax, I wake up in the morning and I'm like, I've got all this energy.

0:14:25.870 --> 0:14:26.250
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:27.290
Emma Sawyer
Umm.

0:14:30.860 --> 0:14:31.390
Emma Sawyer
Yeah.

0:14:27.710 --> 0:14:32.70
Sienna Van Venetien
It's almost like an overwhelming, like had just need to do something. Kind of, yeah.

0:14:32.810 --> 0:14:33.200
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:14:32.710 --> 0:14:40.270
Emma Sawyer
Yeah, but also like with me, I can hyperfocus as well, which is like.

0:14:41.50 --> 0:14:42.550
Emma Sawyer
It's like a superpower.

0:14:43.650 --> 0:14:45.850
Emma Sawyer
But it's also like not.

0:14:46.220 --> 0:14:46.510
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:15:11.530 --> 0:15:11.960
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:14:46.690 --> 0:15:12.950
Emma Sawyer
So with school, because I wasn't interested in the stuff that we were learning, like at it's like, well, I don't care. But with UNI and that's This is why I was worried about going to uni because I was like oh, never been good at school but got to uni and it's like ohh, I really, really love this. So I'll like focus for like 10 hours a day of being just like immersed in whatever I'm learning so.

0:15:13.750 --> 0:15:15.310
Emma Sawyer
Umm yeah.

0:15:17.110 --> 0:15:18.220
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah. No, that makes sense.

0:15:20.870 --> 0:15:21.380
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:15:17.410 --> 0:15:28.700
Emma Sawyer
That's not a coping mechanism, but that's just like a side effect I suppose. But then if if I'm doing that like last semester, I was doing like, really, really long days and exercise took a backseat and that really.

0:15:30.110 --> 0:15:31.860
Emma Sawyer
Yeah, I didn't play out well for.

0:15:32.610 --> 0:15:32.850
Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

0:15:32.540 --> 0:15:33.710
Emma Sawyer
Like my mental health.

0:15:34.370 --> 0:15:36.0
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah. No, that's fair enough.

0:15:42.710 --> 0:15:42.940
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:15:35.820 --> 0:15:43.220
Emma Sawyer
And they tell me to do mindfulness. But like I've done, like CBT, like cognitive behavioral therapy before and I've done.

0:15:44.20 --> 0:15:45.750
Emma Sawyer
Like a whole mindfulness course.

0:15:46.990 --> 0:15:47.580
Emma Sawyer
And.

0:15:49.10 --> 0:15:55.570
Emma Sawyer
Because I like shiny things, I like new things. I like the the first time I did it cuz I was like, oh, this is new, this is fun.

0:15:56.340 --> 0:16:3.370
Emma Sawyer
But like the commitment to a daily practice of that sort is like not interesting to me.

0:16:3.210 --> 0:16:3.600
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:16:4.390 --> 0:16:5.430
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah, fair enough.

0:16:7.140 --> 0:16:7.390
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:16:4.130 --> 0:16:7.480
Emma Sawyer
Yeah, so pretty much exercises is.

0:16:8.310 --> 0:16:22.660
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah. Do you find routine helps as well? Because I like when we were talking about moving just before. Obviously you said it. You don't cope well with change. So having that routine and familiar environment and somewhere comfortable. Is that helpful for you as well?

0:16:25.310 --> 0:16:25.560
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:16:31.430 --> 0:16:31.690
Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

0:16:36.890 --> 0:16:37.190
Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

0:16:22.940 --> 0:16:39.430
Emma Sawyer
It's like so necessary because like the past week, I've just been like, all over the place and not being able to focus on any school anything because I didn't know where all my things were and where I was gonna be or how everything was gonna work. And so when I see my psychologist.

0:16:40.110 --> 0:16:41.760
Emma Sawyer
Because I see her quite regularly.

0:16:42.190 --> 0:16:42.470
Sienna Van Venetien
Umm.

0:17:3.150 --> 0:17:3.530
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:17:5.870 --> 0:17:6.230
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:16:42.600 --> 0:17:9.710
Emma Sawyer
And I said to her, I was like, I just. I don't know what to do because I feel so all over the place. And she was like, you know, that it's routine. She's like, you need to find, like, at least three things that you're gonna do exactly the same at the same time every day. So that I start to feel like a little bit more secure because otherwise I feel like everything's all over the place, even though, like, I'm sure for normal people, it's just like, no. Well, like.

0:17:10.430 --> 0:17:10.590
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:17:10.530 --> 0:17:25.130
Emma Sawyer
You know, my partner was like a treat. Your mum's like a an office and just go there for office hours and then come home here. And I was like, I can't because my brain's like, having the things split between two places. It's like, no, I can't do it. So.

0:17:24.550 --> 0:17:30.360
Sienna Van Venetien
It's almost two new again because you're like, no, I'm putting me in this different environment than changing my routine of.

0:17:30.950 --> 0:17:31.680
Emma Sawyer
Yeah, exactly.

0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:32.160
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:17:32.830 --> 0:17:33.530
Emma Sawyer
Plus then.

0:17:34.180 --> 0:17:35.270
Emma Sawyer
To get to week 10.

0:17:36.0 --> 0:17:39.190
Emma Sawyer
And everything has to move anyway. I'm like, let's just do it now. So.

0:17:40.190 --> 0:17:42.810
Emma Sawyer
I can at least, you know, get reacclimatize to like.

0:17:42.650 --> 0:17:43.30
Sienna Van Venetien
Yeah.

0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:44.0
Emma Sawyer
Yeah.

0:18:6.360 --> 0:18:6.590
Emma Sawyer
Yeah.

0:18:9.20 --> 0:18:9.250
Emma Sawyer
Yeah.

0:17:45.110 --> 0:18:1

Interview with Leanne and Emma Cochrane

Might do.

Already perfect.

Cool. Now, don't know if your mom's told you much, but I'm

looking at how sensory stimulus can be helpful.

In education spaces for kids with ADHD, anxiety, etc.

So I've been excited to talk to you because I've heard a lot

about you.

I'm very excited. So if you're all good, I'll get this

interview underway. Yeah. Beautiful. Alrighty. So I'll

start with a pretty common question. Are you familiar with

fidget toys? Yes.

Yes. Have you used them before? Yes, many times, yeah. Have you

found them helpful or are they something that.

Is a big Little Miss at times, yeah, it's very hit or miss, I

think. Yeah, and I think they lose their.

Lose their fun after awhile. Like lose there. I don't know

how to say it.

To me, like they you get bored with them after a while. They

just yeah, yeah, yeah. The effectiveness kind of diminishes

after a little while. Yeah, yeah. If you don't mind me

asking, what kind of fidget toys have you used before?

Well, I remember there was the fidget cubes and then those

fidget spinners. And I've also used like Plato a lot. Blue tag,

lots of like stretch ones, stretch balls, slime, like you

name it.

Fabulous and how old were you when you first encountered

fidget toys?

Um, prep. Like it was my first year school and I was very.

Yeah, fidgety ended up with the.

Lifelike stretch toys and stuff? Yeah, yeah. But I didn't quite.

Sorry, sorry. Can you keep going? No, you no, you go. I was

just going to say so how old are you now again? Sadly, I'm 1717

now. So when you first started using fidget toys, do you like,

do you still use them now or did it kind of get boring as you got

older as well?

Thought it was. The teachers didn't often like me using them

in class, so I developed more subtle ways to fidget without

being obnoxious about it or using a toy or anything. Just

like really like little things. Yeah, so you mentioned blue

track before. Is that kind of one of them?

About, like chew gum now that I'm in high school because it's

quite weird to, you know, bring fidget toys to school and sit

there with it. So instead I chew gum more. I yeah, stuff like

that. Yeah, I totally get you. Just so you get a bit of a feel

for about me as well. I've got generalised anxiety disorder, so

that's why I was looking forward to talking to you because I

found very similar patterns when I was in high school as well. I

was a blue tack fidgeter and chewing gum was a huge one. And

I don't know.

About your school, but my school was like no chewing gum. Like it

was like a big, big thing, at least in classes and stuff, like

you could chew it outside and whatnot. But yeah, I was

wondering if there was that still still that similarity for

you guys now.

Only depended on the teacher. Some teachers with the segment

that some teachers were like. Not at all. Some teachers. She

had to kind of sit like this and pretend to be fun, but yeah.

Um, so if you don't mind me asking, what kind of mental

health issues do you experience now? And I have anxiety and

ADHD.

So awesome. And was it something you were diagnosed pretty early

with? I got my official diagnosis, I think last week. Oh

my goodness. Well, Congrats. Thank you.

Bill to.

It feels way better now. I feel like I always felt stupid kind

of saying to people, Oh yeah, I have anxiety or oh, I have ADHD,

but I didn't have an official diagnosis because I just felt

like one of those people who goes around like saying things.

But like obviously now that I have the official diagnosis, I

feel like I can say it. I feel like I can like if I go when I

like tell my future, I can like tell my teacher now and like,

they have like, proof and stuff. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just

about to say so when it came to your teachers and stuff like

that.

Is it hard for them to understand before you got the

diagnosis, whereas now you, like you said, you've got that proof,

so it's a little bit easier to navigate?

I haven't gone about the official documents, still

haven't come in, so I haven't been able to really put it out

there amongst the teachers and stuff, but I will do it because

I've, you know, loves big exams for our example.

You can imagine sitting there.

Is quite difficult for me. So they will obviously need to know

about it. I think some it was just there depending on the

teacher, you know, like obviously my psychology teacher,

if I was sitting there tapping my leg, she'd go, yeah, you

know, do you need to go? And she was a lot more understanding

than say, you know, my, my English teacher who didn't

really just even think about it, you know?

Yeah. So you find those really long stints of time are really

hard to deal with especially with your teachers. Not or some

teachers not knowing or understanding very much. Very

much like sitting in class for like especially final period of

the day. Like I have chemistry fourth period on a Tuesday and I

like, we'll find myself in tears some afternoons because I'm

like, I I'm trying so hard to sit here and trying so hard to

listen, but then like the moral start outside and then I'm just

going and then by the time I turned back.

And I've lost the whole thing and I'm just like and I'm so far

behind.

Yeah, no, that's totally understandable. And with your,

with getting those like diagnosis and official papers

and stuff like that, does your school have like processes in

place where you'll get adjustments for your exams and

that kind of things like whether it's an environmental change or

circumstantial change. So like a change to the time or something

like that. Yeah, no, school is very understanding of it. I will

get a lead plus for my anxiety, which means that same.

Being a panic attack or something. Plus I'll be able to

step out of class and go to student services and see a

guidance counsellor or just not be in class anymore.

I will also be able to set my exams either in a separate room.

I'll be able to get on special breaks in between so I can just

like go outside supervised and just do like 10 jumping jacks or

something and just like get the movement guy so then I can come

back and be normal.

Yeah, so with the anxiety like your.

What was it called the anxiety past the?

Is that something you had before? Leave. Pass. Thank you.

Um, is that something you had before you got diagnosed with

that? Something they picked up on beforehand? I believe it is

something that you can get beforehand, but I never really

went and saw the guidance counsellor, so I didn't ever get

it. But now obviously the official reports will be sent to

the school. So I'll go and make myself an appointment with the

counsellor and be like, I have this. And then she had to leave.

Possibly, but I believe that you can get them from just the

counsellor.

OK, cool, cool. And you mentioned movement before being

helpful for you. Is that something that you'd find like

usually helps periodically?

Yeah, I like, we'll be there studying and I'll get up and do

like 10 jumping jacks and I'll sit down and I can, like go back

to it. And I didn't like something, expel it all and then

sit back down and keep going.

So as someone who also fidgets like do you find, what kind of

stimulus do you find really, really helpful? Like what kind

of textures it can be? Sounds, tastes, smells, all that kind of

thing as well.

Um, I prefer, definitely prefer to be silent. Prefer one. It's

more subtle.

I quite like really anything. I really did as when I was younger

like, you know, slimes play DoH blue tag. That was definitely my

favourite for a long time.

Yeah. And now it's just kind of anything that I do.

Tastes like prefer quite a neutral taste.

And just.

I yeah, yeah. So say something like too salty or way too sweet,

it's like overwhelming. It's going to be kind of like when I

chew mint gum because I find like it's quite neutral. Whereas

like the strawberry gum and stuff I don't like because after

a while it just gets too sweet.

Yeah. What other stimulus like do you absolutely despise if

there's anything that comes to the top of your head?

I do not like stress balls.

That way too hard.

Like for me once. Yeah, yeah, hard.

And I don't hate Jelly.

Yeah, that's an interesting one. I've heard a little bit like,

there's been a few people like hate, hate the texture of Jelly.

That's so cool.

I've never even Jelly because I can't bring myself.

To put it in my yeah.

Are there any, like you said you prefer to be silent, so does

that mean like does that coincide with you find it

distracting like with any crowd noise and that kind of thing as

well?

It really does depend. Like in a crowd. I'm fine because like

there's not enough external stimulus.

For me to be able to focus on one thing. So it really depends.

If you're listening to music with no words while I'm

studying, I find it easier to study. But if I'm listening to

music with words while I'm studying, I find it way harder

to study. Same as like Sam in doing an exam. And there's a

bunch of like chatter outside. As long as it's like indistinct,

it's actually quite nice. But, you know, the sound is like, you

know, some kids shouting something, I'll be off. I'll be

like, what is going on outside? So yeah.

No, that's totally fair. It makes a lot of sense.

Do you like your fidgeting or like coping mechanisms change

between like home spaces and school spaces?

I think definitely, yeah. At home I'm a lot more like I will

get up out of my chair and start doing jumping jacks and I like

be doing my foot and I'll be like wiggling around. We how I

have my play ping pong outside if I'm studying and feeling a

bit.

But whereas at school, obviously, it's a lot more

subtle, a lot more just chewing some gun, twisting a ring and

stuff like that, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Your mom was mentioning, I think you got like

one of those spinning fidget rings now. How are you finding

that?

I actually think it's quite ugly, so I don't wear it.

That's so bad. What kind is it?

It's just like a thicker silver one with like moons on it or

something and it just like rotates.

Last minute.

Knowing the size now.

Yeah.

Yeah, I wear like Pandora rings and stuff and it just didn't all

fit and I was like, I'd rather just twist my ring. That's quite

often I end up with like red marks all along my finger from

twisting my ring too much. That's more of an anxious habit

though, and I'm having really bad anxiety. I start twisting my

ring and I'll end up with like big.

Red marks across my fingers. Yeah.

Yeah, I totally get you like all my fingers. Now I've got rings

and this one in particular gets so red because I sit there like

especially like you like Pandora rings. You can see the little

like birthstone lines like that, you know, mines and Pandora one

with like and it's got kind of almost sharp edges and it's just

like, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Do you like pickle bite at your nails as well? Yes, they're

horrendously bend down. That's OK. I feel you.

Hands right now.

No, I was just curious cause that one seems to be a common,

um, common one as well. Especially like at school, like

for people at school and in those education spaces,

especially where I've talked to a few other people that they

can't be as open or explain it or don't have teachers that

understand. So they end up doing those more subtle behaviours and

then end up like no nails or their fingers really hurt. And

that's just, yeah, not not ideal, not what you want, you

know.

You know, is is quite a supportive environment and I I

feel that like if I were to like tell my teachers, they'd be like

completely fine with it, very understanding but I just haven't

yet. So it's more of yeah.

Yeah. No, that is so good to hear because I think it's.

I think it's um.

Yeah, it's interesting to talk to someone who's from school,

like it's still in school now, because it seems to have changed

a lot. And I think especially post COVID, there's been a lot

more understanding amongst teachers and that kind of thing.

Has that been true for you guys as well or has your school

always been that way?

That way it's interplace, stay high so it's like public school

free dress like that will look out, you know, being yourself

representing like culture, age, persons, dignitary, all of that.

Yeah, it's all like.

Very much you do, you Boo. Yeah. No, that's so cool. I love that.

And I love that those environments exist now. Like,

even my brother, he's 19 and, like, his school was exactly

like that. And, like, I missed the boat, man.

Um, no, sorry. Getting back back on track. I get this track this

all over the shop.

Let me have a look at where I'm at. So we talked a little bit

about how fidget toys or like just fidgeting habits have

changed for you between primary and high school. Have you

experienced any other changes between the difference in spaces

and teaching and just like your habits as a kid from then till

now?

Yeah, I think I've gotten a lot more subtle with it and I think

that that's the reason that I never got my diagnosis until

recently is that I was always quite high performing as a kid,

always got good grades. And I because it was such a like

teachers pet like people please, I would like never be open about

it. So I like kept it very well hidden and so.

Yeah, I feel like I've very much decreased how much I do overtime

Interview with Antony Davis

Okie dokie. So for this interview I am joined by Anthony

Davis. I just wanted to gain verbal confirmation that you

have agreed to this interview and have consented for it to be

recorded.

Yes, of course. Cool.

Umm. Now the purpose of this interview is to gain insight.

Into how? Since sensory stimulus can be helpful for people with

ADHD, autism spectrum disorder, anxiety, and a variety of other

learning disabilities, I am focusing on the education space

and improving it in those areas. However, I'm also just looking

at it from a general standpoint as well.

Umm, so we have obviously talked in the past quite a lot about

mental health, but I wanted to ask you more about how your

experience has been with getting diagnosed with ADHD thus file.

It's been OK, right? Yeah. I think I've been turned away by 4

different doctors now.

Uh, not turned away such.

They said that they're not taking any more patience.

Right now which I mean or which I assume.

It's because.

There's just too many people that need help.

And industry isn't.

Quite there to be able to handle that many people. So so again

like like I said, we have talked about this before, but how many

referrals have you gotten so far?

I've had 3/4 separate referrals.

I'm waiting to hear back or I won't be 5. The thing I want my

5th Doctor now. I've actually watched cap and the symptoms

that you experience on a daily basis have been something that

you've experienced for most of your life. Or have they been

something that has kind of come up?

In young adulthood.

A little bit later on.

No, it's just been pretty much made my whole life like.

As young as I can remember.

Day-to-day life, sort of.

Hard to navigate.

Ohh.

Often I find.

Explain it. We just stricted by.

Anything and everything.

Or just completely under stimulated and whatever I'm

asked to do or whatever is in front of me. It's just not doing

it like I can't focus at all.

Or there's just too many things going on around me.

But yeah, from from a very young age was as early as I can

remember all the way.

Through primary school high school education.

Work after high school, finding a job squirt.

Was quite easy, but maintaining it's been very difficult so I

had to work really hard to keep up with everyone else for those

exact reasons, and that was the same reason school was well, ohh

of course I couldn't even keep up with those people.

Uh.

Just enough. You know, league of there and they just have it so

smart. That's like, yeah. How can you accomplish all of this?

It's amazing. Did you ever have any coping mechanisms at that

time to try and help you focus or was it something that you

didn't even try to explore?

A lot. No, no exploration there. I was completely and utterly on

my own is at that point in time, or cause you still. Now I'm. I'm

diagnosed. It's.

Suspected that that's all it is, just speculation, sorry.

As a kid.

Yeah, yeah.

Is my behaviour wasn't so bad that people just assume the

heavy HD they just figured I was either lazy or just wasn't

staying focused. Hmm, so I said I was intelligent. I just needed

to put the work in.

And.

Stop dating. Dating was a big thing, but I would say I would

do.

So just generally being like spaced out and feeling like you

weren't doing enough, but not because you were lazy, but

because you couldn't focus properly. Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Changing the subject slightly.

Are you familiar with fidget toys?

I've seen them, uh, friends and family.

Cousins and my little brother had a.

But it's been on and then, uh, bigger cubes and things like

that. Umm well, they ever. And when you were in school?

Uh, not the years, not the year levels that I was in when they

came out as I was bit too old for it. Most of the kids at that

point, I didn't.

Actually, no. Many people ADHD at the time.

And if I did, it didn't reach out for it.

Is.

Yeah, it was. It was more of a thing for the primary school

kids, so pretty sure.

Looking like right now and it came out. So by that time.

Much the kids out the other.

Strategies to handle it so then, then use it all. And when they

came out at your school and these kids were using them.

Did it become more of a trend for them rather than just a

normal helpful tool for the kids who actually had ADHD and

anxiety etcetera? Yeah, almost immediately it was the thing for

the undergrads.

If you can remember well. Uh.

We call them scooty kids, so they young kids running around

on scooters and all the was the big thing to have.

The cause most done up.

Uh screwed up with all the bells and whistles. Trinkets.

Umm, these kids now had budget spinners.

Made out of different metals and I had different colors and

sprays and shapes. Some of them weren't even.

Uh.

Right. The number three. Yeah. Yeah, I get what you mean for

just finish. There were two something like 4. Like Fancy

Star Wars.

Ninja Toys and things like that. Umm, stop the almost immediately

stop being about saying focus and was like how can we sell?

Umm was it mainly fidget spinners or were there other

fidget toys that also came out that then almost became like a

collectible thing if that makes any sense. Like for the noise

part it was just the thing that spinners I think because that

sort of.

Really, really hit the market.

Ah well, I think.

Shortly after fidget spinners was fidget cubes, but at that

point?

It's just the cube. It doesn't sell too well.

It wasn't as satisfying as the fidgetspinner for people,

actually not. Yeah. Yeah, just the way that they spin spin so

well.

You know smoother, smoother. Yeah. So to an extent, you would

say it was more satisfying to the large majority than the

people with 80 HD. It's just finish doesn't satisfy the

score, doesn't.

Scratch the itch that we have Umm, it doesn't have the

variety. Ohh you wish it had. Yeah. Yeah. And I have heard too

that the sound of fidgets spinners sure is frustrating.

I've had that's a common thing, which is a really bizarre one

that I hadn't hadn't even thought about. The sound of a

fidget spinner before. But the more I talk to people, the more

they are like the sound of it is irritating. Like, just cringe.

Bearing sound is horrible. I mean, it's so it's such a cool

idea and design.

And to be sold as.

Something to help you stay focused. It's ridiculous.

Umm.

Did they ever get banned at your school?

I think they were kind of quiet. Remember it for five years now.

Yeah, true. Yeah. Were they ever, like, confiscated or

anything like that? I think the main confiscated. I'm not sure

that they are completely banned. I think there was some talk

about.

Not using them at school.

Being asked not to bring them to school, not to show them off to

your friends. Yeah, the same things as like Pokémon cards.

And so, yeah, so it was preferred. You'd probably didn't

have it, but it wasn't completely banned. Yeah, it

wasn't completely outright banned. Or I think maybe it was.

And then the hype around them just left. So people just

stopped bringing them in and selling them. So it became an

issue. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I think there was a

series of steps that that bicycle took.

No, she said. You're a bit old for them at the time, but since

then, or even during that period of time, did you ever try a

fidget toy? OK. Yeah, because they're all like, it's in my

little brother had one and the kids are the boss. Obviously

that will show that things and.

Some of them were like really cool, like, really cool designs

on the gold, silver and like a.

Like a bismuth, I work kind of colour differentiation. Yeah, it

was this just the fidget spinners, just the fidget

spinners. No, no cubes. None of those people had cubes. Yeah,

there's the whole hype around it was like, how can you get the

coolest fidget spinner? Yeah. So you hadn't had an experience

with any other fidget toys.

Not for a while. Yeah, not during the craze. Umm, after

that my mother had reached out to Fidget Cube. Sorry.

To see if that could help.

My little brother who is diagnosed with ADHD. Hmm. Or

just ADD.

Me up on that too was kind of like I was just like silly Umm.

Didn't like my experiences with them, but they just they just

felt.

More distracting than they else. Umm, what did you find more

distracting about them?

Umm.

Was it the field that like how you interacted with with it? Was

it like the sound of it colors anything like that or was it

just generally not satisfying to the fidget spinner is it was too

much stimulation was pulling me away from whatever I was doing

at the time. I couldn't imagine well, because I had no one, but

I couldn't imagine having one in class trying to stay focused

within just a genuine toy. Yeah. And the same with Physic cube.

Who? It's similar to kids or students clicking pens or

tapping and things like that. Teachers would get upset over it

because it was like excessive tap becomes annoying for

everyone, but the clicking the spinning, the buttons and things

on the fidget cubes.

And.

Yeah, it was also very distracting. Half of it was just

not stimulating enough.

And then after all.

Does the clicking just got point? Yeah done with this. Put

it there. Hmm. So kind of jumping to where you are now. Is

there anything you do to try and help your ADHD? Any coping

mechanisms or like patterns you found yourself in that kind of

helps you to stay focused on doing day-to-day tasks?

Almost none.

I would probably put that down to.

A lot of neglect, whereas.

The first person to actually suspect I had ADHD was a

previous partner. Umm, because of my quote UN quote,

hyperactivity.

Uh.

But.

Previous partners said that like ohh, you behave crazy. Well,

you've got a crazy person out and you're like you're so.

Paper.

And sorry.

You know, I've been, which was only a few years ago.

Quite recent. I haven't had the time. Sort of.

Figure anything out yet? Although one of the only things

I know to help.

Is creating a very specific routine a series of steps and

priorities Umm to keep me in check like a list of things that

I've ingrained into my brain.

Do you find any additional stimulus helpful like?

Watching videos or fidgeting I don't know with even just your

fingers rings.

Like clothing items or that kind of thing, when you're getting

ready.

Ohh, I would definitely say that having some sort of background

noise.

They have the same way that podcasts are popular now. Having

a YouTube video in music sometimes, but most of the time

music is.

Not stimulating enough? I'm under stimulated oht.

Just remembering now, I actually have a lot of YouTube videos up.

Umm, when I'm just doing everything.

Getting ready in the morning. I'll try not to have anything

on. I'll just stay focused on what I'm doing at the time.

Become often there and after work.

Uh cooking dinner, getting ready for the next day. We'll probably

washing on and things like that. Umm, just the thought of the

thing I'm about to do is so boring and like ohh gosh and put

something on to make it bearable. Hmm, that's all. Just

have YouTube videos in the background, something that's

specifically funny, so it's engaging their brain so it's

it's hilarious. Well, it's awesome.

Helps me complete my stars.

Umm.

Was this? I lost my train of thought.

Ohh, see, we know you're in the process of getting diagnosed.

Ohm and again we've talked previously about how.

You haven't been like, there's no signs or anything like that

that have been arised or raised in your like primary and high

school life. How has that affected how you view your ADHD

now?

Like whether I view it as positive or negative or yeah, it

would just like coming to terms with.

Something that has likely affected your whole life and

your only figuring out how to navigate it now.

I would say I feel pretty cheated, honestly.

Ohh made to feel as if I was slow down, lazy, unproductive.

For majority of my life, by a lot of a lot of people who was

smart enough to see it, which just at that time as they are

still now as well uneducated on the on the topic. Umm, so adults

and teachers.

Smart people.

Uh.

You should have.

Although I should have been answered a little too.

Interview with Sophie Mortensen

Yes. So for future reference, if you've got any more interviews,

it's a super helpful one.

But yeah, can I just see if it picks up your voice as well?

Yeah. OK, I am speaking.

It is saying some stuff.

Yeah, there you go.

Already I'll just tilt it down because it's so intimidating

when it's all laptop.

Alrighty, so you know a little bit about what my my topic is,

but just to clarify, I'm looking at how sensory stimulation can

be helpful in education spaces, particularly for people with

ADHD, ADHD, ASD, anxiety. They are the main ones I'm looking

at. But of course it affects people with other mental health

issues as well.

So I wanted to start with whether you're familiar or not

with fidget toys.

Yes, I am cool. Yeah, use them before.

Umm.

I don't.

Generally, like fidget toys, because they're always like

they're targeted towards children, yes.

They're just like.

Really childish and look. And they're not very discouraged.

Yeah. And they become like, weird little trends. Yeah.

Yes, I don't really like fidget toys.

But like fidgeting.

Perfectly fine. OK, cool. What kind of stuff do you typically

fidget with? If there's an object? If not, what do you

typically do? I mean, right now I'm literally playing with the

crystal on my ring. I'll like.

Move my necklace or like play with my hair, yeah.

Actually do a lot of reading.

About like women with ADHD and ASD, because that's like.

Me and.

It's like more likely.

For a woman to make it more discreet.

And sort of like socially acceptable. So jewelry, hair,

quotes sort of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So with feature toys, did

you ever have them at school, like in general, whether they

are thing when you were at at school?

Umm there are thing when I was in high school. Yeah, that's

when the like fidget spinners came out. Yeah. And I was like

15. Yeah.

But.

Before that, I don't think there was.

Anything like that? OK, cool. And did your school.

Welcome, that kind of thing. Or was it banned? Was it irritating

for them? It was definitely banned. Yep. And he.

Of the ones came out that came out, they were pretty quick on

banning it. Yeah. And did your school have any other support

for students with mental health or learning disabilities?

That, you know, I'm not sure because at the time, I had no

idea so.

I'm going to say my high school no.

Like, not at all. It was a private school, so they're less

likely to, yeah. Offer more support. Yeah. Good job. No

counseling or anything like that either.

No. What I like councillors. Yeah, that's cool. So there was

a councillor? Yeah.

Umm.

That it was mostly.

Just like.

If they thought you were gonna like.

Yeah. Call me out. Yeah. Yeah, gotcha. So just to clarify for

the record, if you're happy to tell me what kind of mental

health issues do you experience?

Yeah. So.

As I sort of implied, I have 80 HD and ASD and what comes along

with that is like.

Severe anxiety, slight OCD and depression. Yeah. Kill. And I

know we've talked a little bit about it before, but when were

you diagnosed with it officially?

Officially, for the ADHD and ASD, it was January this year.

The depression and anxiety it was when I was like 14, so they

caught that before anything else. So have you found it since

you've had a diagnosis? Have you seen a significant change in how

you approach it? Like. Yeah, before to after that makes

sense, yeah.

I'm definitely more open to things that are seen as unusual

for sure, because then I realized ohh.

I would actually really like benefit from.

Like doing that?

And I've kind of just like, suppressed that myself.

Because it's seen as weird and you're like.

Get bullied for it by the kids. Peer pressure but.

Like.

It's relieving to sort of like.

Be able to do the things that you've been wanting to do for

like act how you wanna act and for there to be sort of like a

justification for it, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, is it something that you wish had, I guess come

along soon or not or are you happy that it was a bit later

after that high school period and stuff?

I it would have made education a lot easier. It was nice that I

didn't have.

The labels and things to make me more othered. Mm-hmm. But.

It would have been.

A lot nicer to know because then I would know.

Why I was so different to others, why I didn't learn all

well why I didn't do well in school or like.

Why? Socializing was a little bit more difficult. So having

that diagnosis from the actually kind of communicate to teachers

and yeah, kind of thing better it would have been a lot better.

It's just sometimes the labels get in the way especially in

that sort of like.

Narrow minded sort of. Period in life, people kind of assume

people you're certain way.

Sort of outcast me, yeah.

Yeah. And getting a little bit back to sensory stimulus and

obviously fidgeting, what kind of stimulus do you find like the

most satisfying that you really are like?

Ohm.

It could be anything from like colours to smells, even or like

actual textures that you really like the feel of. Like if you

really like fidgeting with your ring. Is it? Yeah. A particular

ring. And yeah, just really like this sort of like.

Queen repetitiveness. So it's like.

Not much changes when you do it.

Umm and log soft things that is.

They're the best.

This is some.

So just something that's really constant.

UM.

I don't have anything for.

Like.

Seeing or smelling or hearing because I'm really sensitive

with like noise. Yeah. So it's more like touch. Yeah, sure. OK.

Cool. Yeah. And then obviously looking at the opposite of that,

is there anything that comes to mind when you think of sensory

stimulus that is really distracting? You just absolutely

hate and despise.

Yeah, I I'm really really sensitive to noise. So I

literally have earplugs that I put in and like right now, I can

hear the electricity going crazy and the air. Yeah, I could hear

it.

The electricity surging in class before just because it like like

went really weird and fuzzy in my ears. Yeah, sorry noise it's

like.

The most distracting, but also.

It's like a weird.

Umm.

What's the saying was like?

A double edged sword sort of thing, so I can't stand when

people like tap.

But I also tap, yeah, it's like.

So.

ADHD, part of me really wants to tap.

But then I got distracted by other people tapping, or I just

really don't like the sound of it. Yeah, so it's like.

Yeah, but like you wanna do it, but also you don't like it.

Yeah. So if there was a tool that was more catered to, like

our age group, what would be your like?

Like the absolute things to stay away from, I guess.

Something that's really noisy.

Or really like visibly.

Like yours? Yeah, because.

Umm, like when you hear a new noise you like turn to it. Or

when you like see something, you know peripheral. That's like

really just like.

Obvious and sudden you get distracted by it as well. So

nothing that's like.

Really loud and sort of like if like clicking a pen gets really

annoying, that's on it. Sort of like repetitive annoying noise.

Umm.

I think like.

Color and texture would be completely fine other than just

like.

As long as it doesn't.

Distracts others. Yeah. Yeah. So something that's more subtle for

you because obviously, like you said, with fidget toys at the

moment, they're so marketed towards kids because they're so

colorful or then click and pop and like, even had a lot of

people that say the spinning sound of fidget spinners can be

really annoying, but they can't help but use it because they

lack the feeling in between them. Hers. But the the shift of

weight, I suppose, is satisfying that the sound is horrible.

There's like, then you.

Weird hopping. Like plastic. Yeah. Yeah, I.

Type that I can like.

I can.

Sort of taste the plastic when I see them. That's such a it's

such a weird thing. But, like, you know, when you look at

something and you can like, you know what, it would taste like.

Yeah. Or like or like, texture. And you almost feel it in your

teeth if it makes sense. Yeah. And so when I do that, I just. I

like, smell just like heavy, heavy plastic and.

You'll also think like.

That shift, so bad for the environment, yeah.

Umm.

Yeah, it's just like, yeah.

They're not.

Hated for people who actually need them. Yeah. So if you had

the opportunity to use a tool that was a little bit, like I

said, more catered to our age group, so design better in the

sense that it's made for an older audience. So it's not as

like colorful or childish, a little bit quieter. And also it

would customization be something that you would find helpful.

Like if you could kind of choose what textures you could interact

with and then also get rid of any that really agitated.

You. So you didn't even have to like, look at them and stuff. So

like, they weren't even in the equation. Is that something that

you would find helpful? Yeah. I think that would be awesome if

you could customize it does. Then it can really.

Cater to your specific like what you like cause if it's like what

you like, everything but one thing on it it's like.

Uh, I don't want to use it because I really don't like that

one thing, even though the others are really good. Yeah.

The so first part of that question.

I can't remember, you know.

No, I think that answers my question.

And because I'm looking at like the education space, my idea is

seemed to be about evolving into.

Ohm like a format that kind of looks like a book or another

piece of like school equipment. Is that the kind of subtlety

that you would be? Yeah. Please really, if that makes sense.

Like if it was in, like, a little binder or a book or

something, you could easily carry with you.

Yeah, because obviously a huge issue for me as well. It's

making sure that it's it doesn't go trendy basically and making

sure it's so it needs to be obscure enough that people.

Like, don't just look at it and go. I want that thing. Yeah, but

still helpful enough for the people that do you need it. And

then it becomes like it actually helpful tool. But yeah, if it

was in that kind of format of something that looked like all

of your other school stuff. Is that something? Is that a.

Kind of format that you would be happy with. Absolutely kill.

Like just thinking back on the stuff that I had in school, I

did often.

Like play with the wrapping of UM.

The outside of a book or like.

A rollout or like test, metal, rubber. They were like, really?

Textural. Yeah, so.

Like.

I guess in my own personal experience, I have used school

stuff as.

Uh, and if it's like it doesn't get, like, made into a fat, I

think that's even better cause.

Then it will become gentrified so.

And we tightly.

Umm. And then.

In relation to your personal experience with sensory stimulus

and just fidgeting in general, is it something that you do

subconsciously and like, is there a particular reason why

you do? It doesn't help you focus. Or is it just something

you do without realizing?

Umm.

I think it is subconscious. Yeah, sure. Uh.

I never.

Knew that I did it until someone pointed it out or if someone

mentions it I'll be like ohh didn't even know I was doing

that.

I don't know if it's still like.

Umm.

Take me away from something else or it's a comfort. I think it's

just.

They're not sort of grounds because it's like.

In those.

Mindfulness exercises, so they're like.

Name 5 things you can see four things you can touch it sort of

like that it.

Grounds you because you're like.

Like I thought, touching, smelling, hearing, blah, blah,

blah, stuff in the real world. Yeah, and not going off.

Somewhere else? Yeah.

So I feel like it is like a grounding element for me. Yeah,

you cook and then just as my final question I wanted, I'm

doing a bit of a consensus on how your views on mental health

have changed post COVID and just getting like a sense of the

Interview with Joanne Dean

There we go. I think it's recording.

The recording? Yeah, there it is.

Cool.

It's a little delayed today.

I don't think I can start transcription. That's OK, I'll

work that out later.

Let me see can I do it from my end maybe?

No, it's greyed out. I'm not sure. I don't know why. It's

because it's not a meeting. Maybe because it's just a phone

call. True. That's true. That's OK. I can always find. I'll see

if I can find another transcription programme. I'll

probably be fine.

So did you want some more context on on the interview and

content itself or did I explain it OK in our message from

earlier? Yeah, just remind me. Yeah. So obviously it's for

action research.

So my focus for my project is looking at how sensory stimulus

can be helpful in education spaces. The age group I'm

focusing on is between 16 to 25 because there seems to be a real

gap in the market where fidget toys and such are marketed to a

much younger age age group. And there's nothing really out there

of that sort for older age groups and in those like older

high school and tertiary education settings.

So yeah, that's kind of the basis of what I'm looking at.

And yeah, so I just wanted to get some insight from an

educator as well, because obviously I've managed to speak

to quite a few students and a couple of parents as well and a

couple of their kids. But yeah, I wanted to talk to someone

who's actually, especially in the tertiary setting, because

obviously, if I'm looking at the like later levels of high

school, they're kind of merging into that tertiary study, if

that's what they choose to do anyway.

Yeah, so that's kind of, that's kind of why I wanted to do this

interview with you today and get your input on it. And obviously

if you're comfortable to do so, I'd love to hear about your own

experiences with mental health and stuff as well. If that's

something you're comfortable doing, cool.

Awesome. So I guess I'll start with.

I might start with your experiences, if that's OK, and

then I'll go into the education side. Cool. So I'll start with a

simple question. Are you familiar with fidget toys? Yes.

Yes.

Amazing. So are they something you use often?

Yeah, for sure. I I think I became aware at some point that

whenever I was working at my desk, I would always pick up

like the nearest BLOB of bluetack or an eraser or

something. And it was just like a totally mindless wasn't

thinking about it. And blue tack, I don't know if you've

ever used blue tack as a fidget toy. It's really gross, you

know? So it's like maybe I should invest in something

that's actually designed for this. Yeah, slightly off topic.

Huge blue tack and I had this one incident near 5 where I was

fidgeting with it so much it got stuck to my desk and I had to

actually scrub it off at the end of the year, so just got that

sticking practise.

That's not ideal, no. Um, so having a collection that big, do

you use it only at home or is it something that you also have

like at your work desk and offices or anything like that as

well?

Only at home? Yeah, I guess because I don't have like a

dedicated desk at the university and I kind of float in and float

out.

It's not something that um I have had, but if I was like

working in a studio environment, um I'm trying to remember, I'm

sure I would have had at least one or two on my desk in in the

studio environment where I've got like a permanent desk setup,

yeah for sure. But yeah, mostly at the moment at home. And how

long have you been aware of flash used fidget toys?

Yeah, good question, um.

A few years? Um, maybe four or five years? Um, yeah, just

through my own. As I mentioned, observations of my own

behaviour. But my mum's also a mental health professional, so I

think it was something that she had talked about previously to

me as well. So yeah, and were they something? Were they around

when you were in high school, or was it something that you found

out about after high school long, long after high school?

Yeah, I don't remember anyone talking about it when I was in

high school.

Yeah. And when I was in high school in the late 90s, early

2000s. So yeah, yeah. No, it's just interesting because

obviously they're still, I would say, relatively new, like they

haven't been around for super long. So yeah, I'm always

curious about when people kind of came across them because I

know people that have, like they came out whilst they were still

in high school and they didn't find out about them until heaps

later or. Yeah, yeah. Do you know of anyone that has used

them?

School before or you're not in that room.

No Connexions to it to any any school at the moment, so I know

that's all good.

Let me have a look. Um.

Are there any particular fidget toys that you find like

particularly helpful that you tend to gravitate towards the

most?

Yeah, I have. Um, I have a bunch of different kind of textures

and that kind of thing.

She want me to show them to you? Yeah, if you can. That'd be

awesome. They're right here.

Yeah.

The box is overflowing. This is my.

This is my.

The one that I have on my desk quite often is this one, which I

bought in Japan actually. And do you know those mouse pads that

have got like the gel wrist thing on them? It's got that

material in it and it's squidgy.

We also have these ones came from my father. He collected

them from me for for me from a beach. So they're just like.

These are actually really nice for meditation because they're

weighted. They have they. Yeah. They feel they're really quite

smooth. They feel nurse have this.

Strip of sheepskin that I got from reverse garbage one time

that just I couldn't stop touching it.

Have a dish scrub. That's a good one.

Oh, this. Yeah, this is also something I bought because I

couldn't put it down. Yeah, and I have all kinds of like,

fatties.

Have a squidgy banana.

Also, they stretch your buns too. That's cool.

One of these little.

OK, this is like more traditional stress ball which I

only have the one of but and yeah, various other different

shapes.

Rocks.

Buddies and things. Cool. Alright, thank you for showing

me because that's this is my last one.

Cute. I haven't seen one like that before, but that's so cool.

It's definitely from the Kmart kids section.

Play with.

That's cool. Thank you for showing me.

Um.

With that in mind too, I wanted to ask if you have any other

like methods or coping tools that you use or if fidget toys

are pretty standard, go to for you. Yes, fidget toys for me

are.

I guess kind of a lower level stress anxiety.

Um.

Tool, I guess. Like if I'm if I'm really, really stressed,

that's when I tend to move towards meditation and

breathwork.

And yoga kind of yoga, stretching and that kind of

thing. Really low levelled yoga, not anything super intense, but

um, but yeah, that's.

I also use those those techniques as well, but as I

mentioned, I do quite often incorporate like the thinking

the stones into my meditation practise as well, so there are

some overlaps there.

And if you're comfortable to do so, what kind of mental health

issues do you experience?

Yeah, I've.

Suffered from anxiety? Um.

For probably my whole life. I only really became aware of it

as a thing when I was probably in my mid 20s.

No one was really talking about it, not in the not in the

cultural zeitgeist and the meaningful way anyway. So I just

kind of thought the way that I felt was how everyone felt and

then realised, no, this isn't normal.

I can relate to that one.

It's almost a relief in a way when you go ohhhhh, OK like, you

know, it's it isn't just that I can't cope, it's that there's

something wrong with my brain.

And so I went all the way through university without

realising that I had anxiety.

Which made my university experience.

Quite tumultuous and turbulent and stressful.

I have never suffered any long periods of depression, but I

have certainly experienced depression in the past as well.

I'm very grateful that I've never had any long periods of it

but but that has certainly been there as well.

And I'm on kind of the journey of of ADHD neurodiversity

diagnosis at the moment. So I have no confirmation of that,

but I suspect that that's been at play my whole life as well.

You find that those diagnosis particularly for your anxiety

and stuff and then obviously going through the process with

possibly having ADHD now that it's giving you some sort of

peace and like reassurance and just ability to almost be a bit

more flexible with how you approach your mental health and

learning or teaching etcetera and just day-to-day life.

Absolutely. Yeah, I think when you can put a name on it, you

know, it becomes something that you can manage.

And becomes, it's no longer. I think it for me, I felt like it

was no longer just a core part of who I was, but it was just

like, OK, this is the thing that I deal with. And now that I know

what it is, I can start to figure out how to manage it

better. And I've gotten, I've gotten much better at that as

I've gotten older.

From and with your anxiety and the possibility of ADHD, is

there any sensory stimulus that you can't stand or that you find

really irritating or frustrating to be around? Yeah, absolutely.

It's changes though. Like I find if my stress levels are are

higher, I have to be really careful about what kind of

clothing I wear. I find clothes that are too restrictive or that

are too too tight and might like need constant adjusting. I just,

I just, I just can't. It's too much sensory overwhelm for me.

People chewing loudly, but that might not be connected to ADHD.

Maybe so much as it annoys me.

Um.

Definitely. You know if there's too much loud noises all at

once. I I really struggle and bright lights as well. If it's

too much direct bright light, I I struggle. I do much better in

in lower, warmer lighting.

Um, so I might move into the education side now just to

confirm, obviously you're tertiary educated now, but have

you ever educated any other year levels or anything like that or

have we stuck to the tertiary world?

Amazing. And how long have you been teaching touchy students?

I've been teaching tertiary students. I mean, we're almost

at the end of 2022, so that would be about three years plus

an extra half a year many years ago. So I guess 3 1/2 years in

total.

In your classes, do you notice any of your students fidgeting

with things we're using any fidget toys and stuff like that.

I've never seen any students use fidget toys.

Which maybe they should.

Um.

No, I can't say I've ever noticed, but the classes that I

teach are so often quite.

Dynamic and weird sketching and and moving and and doing things

anyway.

That it probably wouldn't be unusual to see a student moving

around a lot. Yeah. So no, I can't say I I can think of any

particular time where I've seen that.

Cool. If you had um like the opportunity to, would you

provide like fidget toys and stuff to your students if that's

something that was like standard across the board for?

Classrooms and stuff to have. Is that something you would

encourage your students to use if they wanted to? Absolutely.

Yeah. I think that would be a great idea. Yeah. Yep. And

obviously, being Griffith, obviously we have things in

place for students with anxiety, ADHD, etcetera. Do you get a lot

of students in your classes that come, come to you to let you

know of those kinds of things and adjustments and all that?

Kind of, yeah, kind of what's it called? Support.

Every now and again I do probably at least once a

trimester I have, a student approached me at the end of the

class and just let me know that there's something going on for

them.

Other students, uh, you know, it's just kind of, we've talked

about it, not in a formal way, but it's just I could really see

that they're struggling and I've kind of taken them aside and and

had a chat about it.

But I think many, many more students I notice.

Are struggling and and don't talk to me as well, so I think

it's pretty. I think it's pretty common.

Especially anxiety, and I suspect probably neurodiversity

as well. I suspect it's pretty common, yeah.

Yeah, no, that's interesting because with the outcome that

I'm looking at creating, I'd like it to be, I'm kind of

originally I was focusing on people who had ADHD, anxiety and

stuff like that. But I think I've discovered there's a lot of

benefits that can come from it, even for people that haven't had

that official diagnosis or whatever. It could just be a

stressful period and stuff like that. So would you like, is that

something that you would also encourage in those classes and

not just have it as a like?

Something I've noticed personally is that a lot of

mainly in like primary and high school, they'll only let the

kids use those kinds of things if they've had a proper

diagnosis or same with like like getting extensions on

assignments or having adjusted exam conditions and all that

kind of thing. So I'm kind of trying to, I guess, break that

wall down a little bit. And so just curious from an educated

Industry Evaluation with Michelle Vine

Like you're doing. Yeah. And then like the first show I had a, during honors it had like 200 people visit, which is huge for a campus show. Massive. Yeah. And then that, And then we had a, some of those works then went into a show, Kaul show, which had like 3000 people over two months. And then a couple of those works.

And now going to another show that's gonna have 40,000 people, uh, over five months or something. But a thousand people a day. Yeah. And so if I hadn't have gone through that process, I wouldn't have the material knowledge to build the work to sustain 40,000 touches. Yeah, true. Um, and also I just know that it, it probably isn't going to be, so I'm giving them three of certain things.

Yeah. So they swap them out. Cause I don't want, like, cuz sometimes you actually don't want to, This is something I've seen in clinical setting. Um, when a lot of occupational therapists work with tactile experience mm-hmm. , it becomes incredibly sanitized. You actually just suckle the fun out of it. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. And, and uh, cuz I was, yeah, one of my clinical placements I was working at, um, Martyr and Youth Drug and Alcohol and they had a new, um, so they would do 11 day residential detox stuff with young people withdrawing from drugs and alcohol. Um, and they wanted to establish a sensory space in one of the residential, um, buildings.

Mm-hmm. , but it, we, we, we found it really hard progressing with the project because that was technically part of motor health services. Mm-hmm. , what they required in terms of like cleanliness and hospital type standards made the types of tactile work I do, almost impossible to implement. Setting. Yeah. And so you'd, you'd be in these kind of clinical spaces and the, the occupational therapist would be like, Oh, we've got a sensory room.

You know, you are all about sensory stuff, Michelle, let me show you. And they would open the door and show me their sensory space. And it just made me so sad. Yeah. Because there were these kind of. . So yeah, they might have a soft chair like this, this one, but again, it's all vinyl so it can be wiped over.

Yeah. Um, and they'll have like a projection onto the wall, but it's just a sad office with some rigid of things in it. Yeah. Like it's not sort of this immersive sensory experience. Yeah. So there's things that we can do, um, to even challenge the conventions of what's expected in those spaces. Mm-hmm. . So don't feel like you have to bend, you know, maybe I'm challenging you to not.

Necessarily bend your ideas so far to suit an educational setting or anything that it's actually no longer effective for target audience. Yeah. Yep. Gotcha. Does that make sense? Yeah. Just something to bear in mind. Yeah. Or just think, Think about, yeah. You won't know what the answer to that till you try the product, but yeah, it can, It can just become so.

we have to make everything so safe and so able to be cleaned that like nobody wants to touch it anymore. Yeah. Whereas the, what I like about this, if, if it sort of pegged does it's their own and they have ownership and they have agency to choose their favorite textures to keep adding to their collection.

Cuz people love to collect things as well. Right? Yeah, definitely. And maybe there's some, maybe there's a kit where they can, um, There's a couple of pages that you put in there that they can, they can add their own favorite textures. Yeah. So maybe they've got some sort of comfort object they've had since childhood.

You know, think about people have teddy bears. Yeah. And a blanket, It's completely fallen apart and there's just this tiny square, you know, that can sort of be honored and go into this. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, no, I like it. doesn't mean you have to do any of it. I'm just rabbiting off. No, no. I'm so grateful cuz like I said, when you stick with a project for so long, sometimes you lose sight of.

You started in the first place or lose track of where you're going or want to look at. So it's always nice to have someone ground you back or go, Hey, maybe look at this or maybe look at that instead. So I appreciate that. Um, so this is some of the like digital visual branding. Um, so obviously I've got my logos there, which you've seen.

Um, this is the kind of color palette, um, that I've finalized so far, um, it's still open to being, um, switched and changed a little bit cuz um, cuz obviously my physical product is the wood, so color and printing isn't an issue too much at the moment. Yeah. Um, I do like those colors though, like, I think is particularly if, if your emphasis on anxiety.

It's a very soothing, calming nature palette. Yeah. Well, I wanted to ride that line between it being, um, soothing, but still friendly and not too dull because I had, um, I did, as part of my surveys was to ask people what kind of colors they preferred. Yeah. Um, and a lot of the response was like, Absolutely no neons, , neons are too distracting.

Like that's totally fair enough. Um, and so I got like a mixed review between bright colors being helpful and. Neutral colors being more helpful. Yeah, so I initially went with a more neutral color palette, and it was very, Browns Greens, um, and obviously the brand name being Juniper, obviously Juniper's a green color, greenish color.

Um, so that's what I kind of centered around. Think of it as a berry, right? Yeah. But the berry itself is kind of blueish blue green. Yeah. I don't associate the word juniper. . Some people do, so, Yeah. Yeah. But um, so that's kind of what I. Centered my color palette around initially. Um, and yeah, so I had this like really neutral color palette, um, and then it just felt really dull when I got to it later on, if that makes sense.

Um, and some of the feedback was like, I like it, but it just doesn't feel as friendly as what the brand feels like it should. Yeah, Yeah. Um, . And so, yeah. So then it kind of evolved into more of a, um, more of a space that I think I found a comf in between it being soothing, um, and comforting enough, but still kind of happy and friendly.

Yeah. At the same time. And I, I do like the connection with nature cuz I think you're also riffing off their, um, what we know from the neuroscience of, uh, like calming people on emotional regulation through nature. So there's this really interesting. studies that show that if you fill your home even with fake plants mm-hmm.

it has the same psychological benefit with real plants. Yeah. Because it's like on some subconscious level, we're encoded to feel, oh, we're with nature. Mm. And, and our sort of energy can drop. Yeah. Um, not talking very scientific there, but No, I get a book that's got all Yeah, no, I totally understand. So, so there's something.

there's something in using those greens in particular induc using like, you know, blues that are in the sky, or like a yellow that's in a flower. The yellow's a really common flower color. Mm-hmm. . Um, so these are very, very natural colors. They aren't excessively stimulating or jarring. So if you look at my color palette in here, Yeah.

Um, it's a, it's a deliberately stimulating power. Students or colleagues come and sit with me and we have, have stimulating conversations. So I want you feel physically relaxed but also creative and stimulated. So that's the color palette that I'm using here. Um, but if you are, Yeah, so it's just making sure that, that everything is in alignment with the goal.

Yeah. So you've got your target audience, but if the goal is to, um, help people emotionally regulate through touch and for them to, um, calm. sympathetic nervous systems so that they can actually be more available for learning in educational environments, then that's part. Your product sell is there like that?

It actually is in the line with that design decision. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Cool. No, that's helpful. Cause I went through a whole dilemma with the colors and went through heaps of iterations cuz I just felt like I couldn't get it quite right between what I wanted it to convey. And then also fitting the brand personality that I'm kind of developing.

Yeah, no, I think stuff like that. So I think it's definitely in the zone. Cool. And then these are a few patterns that I've developed. Um, again, more so to be used on the digital applications. So things like the. , um, pamphlets I do have. , um, on my computer if you wanted to see those as well. Yes. Um, I'm still developing the colors for them cuz I originally had the front as like black, but it just feels a bit harsh.

So I think I'm gonna go for the lighter colors cuz a lot of my other branding, um, has a lot of lighter tone or like the lighter colors are more prominently used. Yeah. Than the black, the black's more so. Um, for like text and stuff like that so that it's readable. Um, and yeah, it keeps it easy to look at.

But yeah, I kind of wanted to have that connection to nature. So it's kind of abstracty and um, it's very matis cutout. It is a little bit, yeah. it's a lot. Definitely. Well, that's real bad, but that's, that's how it rs with the squares. So, I mean, one thing I would say, if you're keeping with that nature thing, just be really aware.

the contrast between these organically shaped forms and square corners. Yeah. So if you want them, if you are working with a negative space mm-hmm. , there's something a little bit jarring about that, as in, well there's energy, um, in terms of like really basic design principles. Yeah, there's energy in that because there's this contrast.

These soft sort of hand drawn organic forms and straight lines. Yeah. And so if you're wanting to, again, keep keeping with the color scheme, you know, depending on how you're using 'em, it's just, even just rounding those little Yeah, I was gonna say, could something, Yeah, that would make sense. Yeah. Cool. Um, and then I kind of had faces, this is a recurring design thing for me.

Um, I always associate it with mental health. I dunno why, I dunno where that connection comes from. Um, but I guess it's almost like the people behind it. Um, but still, like what does, what does including that do to the emotional. Impact of the branding, do you think? Um, I think for me it's almost like a collective.

I know it's, I know it's abstract, but I like the, um, It's pretty representative. I was gonna say, I feel like it's like you don't feel alone. To me it doesn't feel like it, like there's all these other people. It's the faces of, but Okay. Even though they're repeated, it's like that's the connection it has.

Yeah. For me personally. But are they friendly? I mean they don't look angry , but I don't know they, they're pretty neutral. But in saying that they did fit the color palette I had before. So I dunno whether to edit them a little bit now. Yeah. To make them a bit more on the happier, friendly side cuz they are quite neutral faces.

But I don't know. I think, I think it's something to really consider. I mean, I haven't seen how you're using these Yeah. And I know you have to develop all these elements, but to me, um, there's something about that, that's a bit. jarring. Yeah. Bit jarring. Yeah. And it's jar, it's, it's just around, you know, um, like being watched by all these people or something.

So, Well see. That's why I wanna get rid of this one. a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I just, I think all of these are working really well. I'm just not sure if these are necessary. Yeah. Cool. But, you know, again, you are coming from Viscom and that's a different discipline to mind. I mean, I have experience as a designer and stuff.

It's depending on how you're using them in the branding. Yeah. Um, because it's almost, there's something surveillance that comes up for me with there's all these faces and eyes face. Yeah, definitely. You know, and it's like, and, and if you really are plugging, you know, quite a neuro divergent. Target audience, that whole, um, imposition of eye contact Yeah.

Is just something to be aware of. Yeah. That's where I wasn't sure. Yeah. That's where my, you masking must maintain eye contact at all times. Definitely. Yeah. Um, that's just something that's like quite, um, I mean, not topical, it's just kind of center central to a lot of, um, people's experience of neuro divergence as well, So Yeah.

Where the, Yeah, It's, it's like, you know, when you. . You have a piece of writing and you are like, I really like that paragraph. You go, But does it serve me? But I really like what I wrote there. Yeah. And we sort of talk about that as saying you sometimes you gotta kill your darlings. Yeah. And you go like, I love that, but I've just gotta kill it.

Gotta kill it. Yeah. Because I'm not suggesting you might have to but be, be really thinking of the overall product and then who that's for when you are making, pulling back and refining and making that. The, the more elegant, refined, resolved work. Yeah. Is that, um, these are all really great elements, but do you need that many?

Yeah. Yeah. Well that's, I'm glad you say that because um, I think after developing my branding a little bit further in terms of logo and color palette, like I can see this is one I don't wanna get rid of. Yeah. Cause I feel like it fits really well and I like your advice of softening the edges a little bit.

So I think if I give that a go would probably fit a lot better. Yeah. These strip in sitting on. For probably about a week now. Yeah. Deciding whether or not to keep them, because it did Yeah. Pop up to me that it's like, that's also part of a sensory experience. Yep. Um, if that makes sense. And that idea of being watched, I was like, that's a little bit creepy to

Yeah. And just people was like, Well, there's a lot more a loaded meaning I was, you know, people bringing their cultural associations and their own memories and stuff with these kind of images. Yeah. Um, and. I mean, that's a neutral thing for you as a designer because it's like, well, what's my outcome?

What's, what's the emotional response affect that I'm trying to emote in the people viewing this? And so it is just those decisions you're making are having influence. It's not to say that you don't wanna do that or you don't, it's just that if you do include them, be aware of the direction that they take the work.

Yeah. They, they potentially will take the work. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. No, I'm glad you say that because it's not completely necessary that I. Heaps of patterns or patterns at all. It's just something that I typically like to develop cuz it's a little bit of an additional, um, design element that I can use and, um, printed outcomes and even on like websites and Instagram and stuff like that.

Um, but yeah, it's by no means necessary that I have three, like that's little requirement or anything like that. So I'm more than happy to like, get rid of a couple if it doesn't suit my partner. Well, I mean you yeah, I mean, you've gotta. What you have to do to fulfill the requirements of the course and the brief.

Yeah. Um, and, and through that process of refinement, you, you're figuring all that out. So, yeah. Cool. Um, now, um, Sorry, before I forget, my recording didn't record properly. . Okay, so we're rerecording now, but I was just wondering if you could repeat kind of where your practice came from again, and, um, what you've explored a little bit.

Um, you were saying like you're interested in anthropology and looking into psychology and stuff like that. Just a little bit of that background again, if that's okay. No, that's okay. Yeah. Um, so. Um, I mean, I probably, I'll probably say it differently because I won't remember what I said. It's good . Um, so yeah, my interest in touch and working in this way, um, it actually came out of being quite ill in honors and I had to take break and I had, um, I had a terrible reaction to medication and I lost capacity to speak.

I couldn't form sentences and I couldn't, um, I couldn't actually, Like do the theoretical research I was doing. So I just spent a lot of time in the studio, like reconnecting through play and through sensory experience and going, Well, what if I just put this with this and what would that feel like? Yeah.

And really learning to trust my body again as I was going through that healing process. Yeah. Um, of, um, you know, what were the different sensations that I was attracted to mm-hmm. . And so it initially really started with me. So I would go around like Kmart, Bunnings. Um, target because I figured if I was using found textures, they were already safe for people to touch.

Mm-hmm. . Um, and as much as there's lots of interesting textures, you can't put anything into a product or an artwork that is gonna be dangerous to the public, um, and has to be very secure. So if it drops, it's not gonna smash and all that sort of stuff. So yeah. So I sort of just started by doing that sort of survey and as I started making this work and then it was interacting with the public, I was then able to continue to iterate.

Um, those bo big bodies of works and just add more objects to them. You know, I see that with your work that you, you have this as a starting place, but you can keep iterating and adding more textures to it. Mm-hmm. more pages as people are, um, are drawn to that. So I think at that time I wasn't really public about the fact that I was exploring my own, um, autism diagnosis.

Mm-hmm. , um, I certainly was not encouraged to talk about. at the university. Mm-hmm. . Um, which I find it interesting cuz now I'm like full-time academic and, and artist. And I, I'm very open about being autistic and having ADHD and um, and in fact, you know, mental health and sensory experience is actually my area of research.

Mm-hmm . Um, so it's great cause we have this like shed light on these things. What what was really enlightening for me was also looking at this, um, sort of subfield of sensory anthropology. Mm-hmm. . So within the sensory anthropology, there's um, two key experts who, um, really informed my work, which was, um, David, How so?

H o w e s. Mm-hmm. and, um, his partner and wife and a. Collaborator. Yep. Um, Stance class. Mm-hmm. . And she is a sensory historian. Mm-hmm. . So she's written amazing books about like the history of the sensors, the history of touch, um, and David and his colleagues. He established a, uh, a sensory anthropology journal and so incredibly interesting, um, articles in there and, and just talking about, , like Western understandings of touch, how that compares with, uh, different First Nations people and their understanding.

And I think, I think where the, where the sensory anthropology could really inform your practice is in how it looks at how we form knowledge about the world through our senses. Mm-hmm. , um, particularly when you are thinking about sort of your work being placed in educational settings. Whether overtly or covertly mm-hmm.

um, or, you know, you know, being offered as a tool mm-hmm. in, um, by educators or counselors or clinicians of some sort. Mm-hmm. . Um, it's, it would be really interesting to sort of be drilling down into, um, how our relationship as a culture with touch and the tactile has changed over time. You know, we're kind of living in the time where touch is the most tab.

It has ever been in culture and I sort of, I've sort of said that in some of my research prior to Covid and then CS came, come in and it's, you know, touch has become even more, um, restricted. Yeah. You know, um, and there's some really interesting sensory, um, sensory neuroscientists. Mm-hmm. , there's, um, , Professor Lon.

Mm-hmm. at, he's out of Liverpool so he can Google. Google him. Mm-hmm. . Um, there's a great podcast where he talks about touch and the role of touch in society. Cool. And, um, and that really taps into like the evidence space for what you are talking about with anxiety. Mm-hmm. . So if you kind of like, look, if you're looking for some evidence based to put into your rationales when you're describing the product Yeah.

In order to kind. Um, I mean, market it to tho to those sort of professionals. Um, there's, yeah, there's really interesting stuff around sensory neuroscience around how we are the generation in time that has been the least touched of any other mm-hmm. . Um, and another expert that would be really good for you to look at is, what is the name?

Seeing it in my head, it'll come to me. Um, there is. The this of all the senses touch is the least researched, but it is the primary sense that we're born with. That's how as infants, we explore the world. Mm. Um, but there's like one touch research institute based in America. Yeah. Um, Tiffany Woods, Dr.

Tiffany Woods. Mm-hmm. . Um, she actually is a physician who explores the role of touch, particularly around babies. Wow. Cool. Um, so there's just really interesting stuff there that touches into mental health. Yeah. And wellbeing. That could be some, um, key little quotes and things that could be, they could help you with the selling of the product.

Yeah. Cool. As in saying, you know, there's a solid basis for this. Yeah. Um, that legitimize. The, the claims that you make about how this might solve a certain problem to do with emotional regulation and anxiety and harming. Yeah, no, that's helpful. Thank you, . Yeah, cause was there anything else I missed that I talked about before on the recording that you wanted me?

No, I'm just gonna note that you said you had resources on your, or on your website in your Yeah. If you go to my website, there's. It says lot about me and that's texts. Yeah. And on that, um, my honors exegesis is on those a full pdf. And if you have a look at the, I mean you can, there's a lot of theory in about touch that's in there that might be interesting.

But then like, mind the Boo biography and have a look at some of those articles. Some of them aren't gonna be relevant to what you're doing, but the basic stuff around touched all those names, the correct spellings of them will all be there for you. Cool. . Um, yeah, so that's, um, It's interesting looking at all those different disciplines and then sort of having that really inform what you're doing as a designer.

Yeah. As well as then checking in with people Cool. And their lived experience, who are, who are using the product. Cool. And just to confirm, you feel like I'm on a good track with what I'm doing, so I like you're on a good track. Yeah. I really like the, um, I guess at first. , I was concerned about the scale of it.

Yeah. Because I know for myself, like, I like to have things that I can wear. I can hide in a pocket and like, you know, I'm on Zoom in a meeting, I'm fiddling. Yeah. But no one can tell. Um, but I really like the idea that, um, you know, it's, it's, it's something different that you're bringing actually quite innovative, that it looks like a piece of stationary.

Um, But that sort of, that, that sense of order and that alignment that you can get through the laser cutting and printing, it's like leaning into that Yeah. As part of the aesthetic Yeah. With the color palette and the designs and, um, yeah. I think it's could be really effective. Cool. So I think it's, um, a really strong project.

Cool. And, and you've obviously done a lot of work in developing and resolving it. Yeah. And also consulting, which I think you should. Proud of yourself for Darling . Thank you. Cool. Um, and something else I just wanted to, for a mental note for me later is you're talking about the, the covers and possibly doing like that texture gradient with sending it down.

That's something I just wanted to note for me for later. Yeah. Um, there's something really cool about, um, you know what I was talking, I was talking before about how we assess and anticipate a texture based on. how it was our vision informing that. Yeah. So if you, if you look at that, and I can't see a discernible difference across it, but imagine if you, what it, like this is me doing gradient things from photography.

Right. But imagine if you had the cover and you had it, the whole thing. Like taped up with strips of tape. Yeah. Yeah. . So pull this around. Yeah, you're right. So imagine if you like had strips of tape like this. Yeah. Just tape the whole. and then you go, okay, sand that once and, and, and then that gets mm-hmm.

Yeah. Sand that once, then you pull the next one off, then you sand that and then you pull the next one off this sand that Oh, and you pull the next one. You sand that like you would have this step together. Yeah. I get what you totally gradient of texture. Yeah. But of course you'd have to experiment with a varnish cuz every time you apply a varnish it brings the grain back up.

Yeah. So that's like, you know, super fine furnish. , you know, and they'd be dropping the, the grain of the sandpaper with every polish. Yeah. And that, see you end up with this fine polish. But yeah. I mean, that could be something completely aside, but that's just what comes to mind in terms of, um, it's like you've got this space.

Yeah. Right. Built into your product, you've got this cover. Yeah. What, you know, form and function. What what other function? Yeah. If the whole thing is about tactility. , you know, wouldn't it be fun to have some kind of little interesting something textural thing, and then as I was saying to you, like following the finger with, Yeah.

With some sort of inbuilt grain thing. Yeah. Cool. And something else I wanted to note too, as you talked about having the notebook like a little Yeah. Pocket, and I know I've got photos of that for later as well, but I just wanted to note that verbally for myself. Yeah. Especi, especially if it's sort of designed particularly.

Um, that sort of niche market, that, that idea of like, I can be taking notes, but I can also be, um, fiddling with something on the other side. Yeah. So that by playing with that texture, I'm actually able to concentrate and concentrate and take better notes. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. And then expanding my textures a little bit.

Yep. And thinking about like, found textures versus created textures. So that's the stuff with manipulating the materials. And combining materials. Um, and I suggest you go to reverse garbage because you're gonna find some really interesting things there. Yeah, cool. And it could be that some of those things you use, but maybe you don't like the color palette, but then maybe you can spray paint them white and then varnish them so they don't mark and they fit in with your color palette.

But the textures are interesting. Yeah. I, you know, Yeah. So it's just really. , I would say you've got a basic form here that's fairly well resolved and is working. Yeah. Right. And then allow yourself to just be wild and wacky with an unexpected, with the textures that you play with. Yeah. And not all of them will make that in there.

Yeah. But it's like you, then that's, that's how you can sort of really push and challenge yourself. towards where you could take the textures. Yeah. Cause it's like if you, if you spend too much focus on the delivery vehicle and, and not enough on how exciting the textured content is mm-hmm. , the project may not be as strong.

So it's finding that balance between the form and the function. The function. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. That's useful. No, that is helpful. Thank you so much. That's okay. Did you wanna show me the electronic Yeah, I'll show you. Yeah, again, they're in the early stages as well. Cause, um, Check that back in there before.

I forget that . So this is the best bit about working as an academic because like people actually want your opinions on things. Yeah, definitely. Well, I was so stoked to find somebody cuz I was struggling so hard because obviously, especially in the design space, it's not as common to find people that work with sensory stuff.

At least not in the visual and like graphic side because everything is on the graphic company art either. So, Yeah. Well, it's good to know because I was like, yeah, I was struggling a little bit to find somebody that. The, um, like visual and art perspective. Yeah. And then also the sensory perspective Yeah.

That I kind of pick their brain on. Yeah. Um, and would understand too, kind of where I'm coming from with what I'm trying to do. Um, so this is just in my insight, but this is kind of how the patterns were gonna be applied. Mm-hmm. , Um, obviously it's black. Some of the feedback I've received on the I'm come over there.

Yeah, you're right. Point out my window and it's just ah, it's giving you glass. Yeah. Ah, no, let's go. If I come. Um, but yeah, so some of the feedback I got on this is that the black might be too harsh. Yeah. Um, it's a little bit depressive. Yeah. That's the vibe people are getting. And I think, um, Clint said to me too, to be careful that it's not just like, um, you're not trying to just be like slick design, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Like that's where black is used like that a lot. Um, I'm like, Yes. No, that's a good point. Yeah. You've kind of gotta, you've definitely gotta. The default settings of things. Yeah, definitely. You know, like you go to an art opening and everyone's wearing black. Like why, why? Yeah. I mean, maybe this is a good reason, you know, And I like wearing black, you know?

Yeah. I mean, you know. Um, but yeah, so now I'm looking at changing it to like this without the black. I've just gotta edit the pattern in illustrated before I bring it in. Yeah. Um, but kind of keeping it lighter or. And I've got my on the side there too. So I guess my question with this is like, when I see this design mm-hmm.

it just doesn't connect with your products. Yeah. I kind of go, Okay. Is it a makeup range? Yeah. Cause there's the face and the eyes. Like I'm sort of like, um, Whereas I mean, you're talking about something that's all about touch and it's like there's something about the cutout elements. If there were even more hand like, or something like you sort of in an indication of the tactile.

Yeah. Yeah. I get what you mean. Um, but yeah, so I'm looking at switching the colors a little bit so that I'm taking the blackout pretty much completely for a background color. Um, but this is kind of how the other side will look. Um, I've gotta do a bit of work with editing some of the size of the font because the card is quite small.

It's still gonna be readable, but that'll come with test prints. Um, but yeah, so I'm kind of doing a little bit of like a, who can use juniper or obviously the answer. Pretty much everyone can use it if they want to, if it suits their needs. So why do you have that question there then? Because I think a lot of people will probably look at my product and maybe not understand what it is straight away, um, or maybe not understand who uses that kind of thing or finds it helpful.

So then is it more a question of what is Jupyter? Yeah, probably . Yeah. What I'm saying is as you're making a case in your argument Yeah. Is finding, what's the first, what's the first question I should. Nancy, what is Jupiter? Yeah, cool. You know, um, how does it work? Who was it for? Yeah. Right. Whereas we have a tendency, this happens in visual arts.

Mm-hmm. people go, I'm doing an exhibition, it's called this. Yeah. My goal is to solve world peace. They jump to the conceptual without describing it first. Yeah. So you go, This is what's called, this is what it is. Yeah. Describe it. That would make Yeah, that makes sense. And that's also how, that's also how it becomes accessible.

Yeah. Because you, you. Like you're telling a story and you wanna start with describing what you're doing. Yeah. Cool. It's a binder that you can choose. It has textures. You can choose these. Yeah. Take your favorite, Maybe there's notes over why do we do this? It's, this is what it does, and then tell me why it's important.

Yeah. Cool. Well, that's what I wanted to do. Significance kind of have, um, yeah, those little information sections, which will pretty much be the same for all of them because obviously, What is Juniper stays the same. Yeah. Um, but yeah, having that side that's like, how is it then helpful Yeah. For you or for your practice, what you might be using it for?

Um, so it might change this, I couldn't think of the word, but yeah, that, um, why is definitely, um, yeah, so it's sort of, I mean, you might, you might use, um, different words, but like we are constantly arguing or finding the rationale for our practice and what we do, and part of that. Is also, why should we care?

Yeah. Right. And you would never write that question down. Yeah. But when we talk about, you know, tell me the significance of what you've created. Yeah. It's just like, why should I care? Yeah. Right. Well, it's important. Yeah. Because this, we have this problem and it's solving this problem. Yeah. But if you go to the problem first, you're problematizing something and not introducing a cool idea.

Yeah. And not like leading people into the narrative of the product. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the experience of using the product. Um, Yeah, no, that makes a lot more sense, , and maybe you want to then, because you are making claims mm-hmm. of a health based nature, um, it could be worthwhile for you to strengthen that with some sort of research based.

Point at something. It means even if it's a small quote from somebody. Yeah, because that's, That makes sense because cuz you are designing a product to sell, right? Yeah. So, So it's like that sort of stuff. So think about the endorsement. So you are talking about, you know, what they're seeing, how they're using it, but then it's also, well how do I establish credibility for this product?

Because some people are like, Well, I don't know about this, but it's. Wh you know, where, where are the authorities that I can gain credibility for? Yeah. I think that's gonna become particularly important when I'm looking at the parental and teacher side. Cause I know from interviewing a few, like a lot of them want that extra, The evidence based input.

Yeah, exactly. It's like, why is this gonna be helpful for those students though? Or why is this helpful for Yeah. And it's not, you're not producing a piece of research. It's pro producing. A pervasive, a persuasive, and. Of piece of writing to convince someone to buy product. So you can, you can mind that sort of research and use the other credibility of researchers to put in some really poignant quotes that people are, Oh yeah, of course.

That makes sense. It's like they're not gonna go away and read the research paper or the book or whatever, but like, I mean, that's what say books like this. There's some really great, um,

quotes. Like if you go to the start of a, you know, say, Um, flavor engages all the senses. Oh. Like the first sentence is really emotive. Um, and so even thinking about touch unites the senses. Yeah. Um, so thinking, you know, touch is visual. So there's, you know, touch is active and touch is emotional and like all of this sort of language when you start reading about touch.

Yeah. You can borrow that one. Are you. Yeah. Bring back. Love to of course, very precious. Have to go to New York and get another one. Yeah, no, that would be fabulous. Thank you. But um, so have a look at how those sources are writing about touch cuz they're very good at writing about touch to create an evocative like Yeah.

Oh yeah, that makes sense. It sells it. Yeah. Means so, So that sort of research is even just gonna help you work out how to really persuasively write about your product. Yeah. Yeah, no, that'll be helpful cuz I've only just started this process in the last week or so. Yeah. So of course you've gotta build the thing and then get to Yeah, and um, especially for me, the tactile output is a lot more important in my outcome than all of the digital stuff.

Like, it's still important and it still needs to be there, obviously, but I was like, this was my primary focus where to get that, um, underway and then deal with these kind of bits and pieces later. But yeah, no, that, um, that helps a. And I think, yeah, cuz it's what I'm struggling with how to write it properly, Um, in a sense that it's like how do I keep the brand personality, but then also have that persuasive Yeah.

Kind of, um, tone and then yeah, make it, um, incredible for people as well and understand that it's, it's a thing, you know, Yeah. That's definitely where that wider reading and research is going to just give you that, um, . Yeah. It's gonna give you the fuel. Yeah. To be able to refine and resolve that part of what you have to submit.

Cool. Yeah. Awesome. Um, and sorry, just for reference, what days you are on campus? Oh, every day. Every day. Okay, cool. Cause I was like, when's the best time for me to return the book? Cool. . Um, yes. I think that's all I've got for most of my digital application at the moment. I am doing a website and a Instagram as well.

Um, just cuz that kind of social media. Um, touch base is important with my target audience. Yep. Um, and then website, obviously cuz it's product to sell, having that touchpoint is also important. So I think, Yeah. Yeah. So the, so the last kind of like, you know, leaving point, I will leave you with Yes. Cause mean I can talk about this forever especially.

Um, see, I think it's, it's this weird thing working in this area because I kind of go, Oh yeah, like when I was a student, I'm, I'm the only one who's just in this. And then suddenly like you put on a show and all the people. Oh my God, I love touching everything. Can you find your tribe? Yeah. It's very cool.

Well, that's what I'm

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Published: October 18th 2022

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